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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:30 am 
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Xbolt shoots sub moa with 150 gr with copper cleaning about 40 rounds. Purchased same ammo in 165 gr for BAR. Decided to try the 165 in Xbolt after the 150s were about 3 moa. At 200 yds the 165s had 2 threw the same paper, one 1/4” away & all in bullseye. I was amazed by this.
Anyone have any experience or thoughts about this?


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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:15 pm 
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Hi Ronnie,

I believe what you are seeing is the results of barrel harmonics. Every firearm, when fired, sets up vibrations in the receiver and barrel. This is usually drawn as a single sine wave ( a series of S's on their side and connected together,) down the length of the barrel. The theory is that if All Conditions are the same from shot to shot, the bullets will have the same exact point of impact. I will add that each specific weight of bullet at a specific velocity will exit a barrel at a different point on the sine wave as any condition changes and will have a wider 'window' or 'sweet spot' that works over a larger range of conditions that will give a smaller group. (Also note that the actual barrel vibrations are in multiple frequencies. not just a single frequency.)

This becomes important if you 'hand load; for a rifle as opposed to just 'reloading' for accuracy. A reloader is usually happy with a bullet straight from the box into an unsorted case using +/- 1.5 gr~ 2.0 grains of powder that is from the middle of a reloading book's recipe. However, a hand loader will clean, trim and sort their brass to within groups of 1.5 grains or so (depending on the quantity of supplies.) Bullets will be sorted to within a grain or better. Primers will be seated to the same depth with the same pressure. Each powder charge will be weighted to within 0.1 grains. 5 round groups are fired starting with a minimum listed charge and increased 0.5 or 1.0 grains at a time looking for the smallest group. These groups are slow fired and the barrel cleaned between groups or every 10 rounds with solvent and dried. Cartridge OAL will start close to either minimum or maximum length. When the smallest group is found from the charge weight, then the OAL is slowly adjusted to find the smaller group as well. The charge weight is checked again up and down from this point and the OAL is again checked. If the velocity and accuracy is where you want it, you now have an accurate load for that rifle. (I've seen slow fire bench shooter shoot all day with one piece of brass (low pressure loads that work) and even mark the brass with a felt tip pen so it is chambered at the same points for each shot.

For accurate shooting, the muzzle crown must be perfect. The bore should be as close to 0.001 inch or better the full lenght of the bore. A new barrel should be broken in according to that manufacturer's directions. If the new barrel wasn't hand lapped, it may foul quickly. The bore can be hand lapped by a gunsmith or one can buy bullets that can do the same. Handloads should be developed after the barrel is properly broken in and smoothed. Some bullet manufacturers sell bullets with a 'slick' or low fouling coating on them that work well for some folks. Every manufacturers bullet is different from all other manufacturers bullet of the same weight. Use the reloading charts from the bullet manufacture that you use. Different powders will give totally different results with the same exact bullet. I've found best accuracy is usually a 90% caseload of a powder up to a 100% charge. (Work up maximum loads carefully.)

My experience in 30-06 started with building a custom rifle off a 1903-A3 Springfield starting in 1971. My first bullet was the 180 gr Sierra SPBT. It took 4 powders to get to 0.5 moa. I could not get a good hunting velocity with any accuracy in 165~ 168 gr bullets. The rifle wouldn't shoot 125 gr Sierra SP bullets; but, it shot the 130 Hornady HP quite well. The Sierra 150 SPBT shot well with a max load. I also developed a good 220 gr Sierra RD Nose load in case I got to bear hunt. Back home in Texas, I found that the 180 gr was to heavy for the small deer so I switched to the 150 gr. Shooting under 50 yards, I found the 150 gr Sierras were to fragile and switched to the Nosler Partition 150 gr in '76 and have been happy with that giving me 0.5 moa at a max load. The 4 good loads took me 5 years and 8 or 9 different powders and a bit of range time. Today you have more choices in bullets and powders to start with.

Ronnie, id I were you, I'd see if there was a target rifle gunsmith in the area. If so, I'd see about getting your boar checked for smoothness. If not, I'd look at the various 'lapping bullets' you could buy to see if smoothing the bore could cut down on the fouling. Or, try a couple boxes of the ammo loaded with the Nosler black coated bullets and see if they also foul your barrel. Just some ramblings from me :)

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Semper Fi,

Tom


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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:56 pm 
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Thanks Tom! Thinking I should look into a good lapping bullet, any idea on a good one to start?


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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:10 am 
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No, sorry, I haven't used them in years.

Oh, I forgot to mention above.... I have 2 loads for my most shot bullet weights. The 'hunting' round costs from $0.65 to $1.00 per shot based on component costs (mostly bullet costs.) I buy bullets 100+ at a time and the same with brass. Primers are bought 1,000 per buy. The main contributor to the cost is the 'premium' bullets that I use. I also used to be able to find cosmetic blemished bullets below regular costs. I use a Lee hand case trimmer to set minimum case length and use an RCBS deburring tool after each firing. The 'hunting' rounds use the same brass for no more than 3 firings. I store my handloads in the 20 and 50 round plastic boxes with a label listing the info. These are then stored in .50 cal ammo cans.

My main hunting load is with the Nosler 150 gr Partition and the scope is zeroed at 200 yards. I know my drops and windage out to 500 yds and add that with Kentucky windage. I also make cheap 150 gr reloads with cheaper bullets at a mild velocity for plinking. The brass on these will go 10 firings without head separation and the per round cost is around $0.30 ~ $0,40 these days. (I can remember when they were only $0.12 each.) The different weight hunting bullets will have different points of impact. (If memory serves me, going from 150 gr to 180 gr was a scope change of + 1.5 inches to the left and 2.25 inches up to get the group centered. It's written on their boxes.)

I'd still try some of the coated bullets before you try to fire-lap the boar tho. Good luck on your efforts. :)

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Semper Fi,

Tom


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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:15 am 
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Are you talking about the moly coated bullets?


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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:01 pm 
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yep

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Semper Fi,

Tom


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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:41 pm 
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Tom, sent you a PM. Shows in my out box. Did you get it?


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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:56 pm 
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Cleaned most copper out then used Breakfree CLP. Before I shot today, ran a dry patch down the bore. The 1st 7 shots were were all within 1” of bullseye. The next 15 rounds were spreading out. Cleaned all copper & powder out when I got home. Coated bore and chamber with Hornady one shot. See how she shoots tomorrow. This was the process I was using before killing hogs all summer. If this doesn’t group better, I’ll change the Zeiss and put on the Steiner.


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 Post Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:32 pm 
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Update: after much research, trying different cleaning products and shooting Xbolt, I think I’ve got a handle on what this gun likes best with. After killing 53 hogs since Jan of this year, Xbolt had lost its accuracy. I pulled the Zeiss scope and found my Talley rings were not touching the bottom of the scope even though the screws still were holding torque. Thinking the mounts had stress relieved with the scope in place. In my effort to remove and replace the mount I chased one of the threads with a screw that had been removed from the base mount. Screw broke at about 10 inch lbs. Shipped Xbolt to Browning to remove the broken screw. Got gun back and mounted a DNZ Game-reaper one piece mount. Mounted the Steiner scope and cleaned with Butches Boreshine and CLP, shot a 1.5” group. Ordered Boretech CU2 & Eliminator, easiest cleaning I’ve ever done. Shot a clover leaf group with 1st fouling shot about 1/2” away. The xbolt really likes to be clean. The DNZ mount is really solid.
BAR is shooting a 1.25” group after mounting the Zeiss with DNZ mount without cleaning the barrel. Just what I’ve found to work for these rifles.


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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:38 am 
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A word on scope mounting. You probably already know this, but if you don’t hopefully this may help. I recommend you lap your scope rings prior to mounting a scope. You want the rings perfectly round inside and lined up perfectly. If they are not, which seems to have been the case from what you’ve written regarding your first scope, bad things will happen with accuracy. Plus, rings that aren’t lapped, and trued for alignment can damage a scope and affect it’s ability to be accurate. You may find your accuracy improves by doing this.

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Marty

http://www.feederlights.com/
The BEST HOG HUNTING LIGHTS.
http://www.inheatscents.net/
The BEST HOG HUNTING SCENTS.


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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:51 am 
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I’d also add, that your accuracy degradation may have been an issue with your scope, and not a copper fouled bore. In my experience it takes an awful lot of shooting before copper fouling degrades accuracy significantly. On most of my rifles I just use a bore snake and some clp after a range session. My wife’s Abolt .270 has been shooting sub moa for many years, and I’ve never cleaned out all the copper. On my PA10 .308 if I clean out all the copper it’s accuracy goes from 1.5moa to 3moa or more. It likes copper fouling. So, I do not clean out the copper. I know conventional wisdom of most target shooters is to have a good clean bore with a fouling shot or two. That may be true with match grade barrels. Match grade barrels have fewer imperfections in the bore. Whereas, non match grade barrels may have many imperfections. It’s those imperfections in the bore that can affect accuracy. Copper fouling can, in my case does, smooth over some of those imperfections so they don’t affect accuracy as much. I learned a lot of this using a friend bore camera. It’s amazing what you can see when you slide a tiny camera down the bore of your rifle.

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Happy hunting,
Marty

http://www.feederlights.com/
The BEST HOG HUNTING LIGHTS.
http://www.inheatscents.net/
The BEST HOG HUNTING SCENTS.


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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:12 pm 
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Well stated Marty. Thank you for sharing this. I didn’t lap those Tally rings because they lined up when mounting. After laying the scope on the Talley’s the mount and scope was solid. Was getting almost unbelievable groups with the Xbolt after cleaning for those 35-40 rounds. When I finally realized it wasn’t returning to the really tight groups, I decided to check the mounts finding the scope now didn’t fit the rings as when installed. When I searched the Talley rings stress relieving after installing there were hits with the same issue. I think their problem is the 7075 material must be stress relieved correctly and it wasn’t. Being able to see under the scope with a light after removal was a dead giveaway. I’m very lucky the scope wasn’t damaged when the material stress relieved. As for the copper affecting accuracy, I’ve never seen it before either. But after about 300 rounds thru this bore it has shown me it must be clean, then it’s lights out. I’m guessing the barrel was cut very tight to caliber because I’ve proven this to my self at least 8 times now. I agree with your statement in that it’s very unusual to see a mass produced bore act like a match grade bore. On the bright side this cleaning process is easy, effective and highly accurate. If you are ever near Warner Robins, Ga I’d be delighted to have you see this and share some stories. This rifle is the most accurate rifle I have ever touched for those 35-40 rounds. It’s taken me awhile to learn it and respect what it does. Suffice to say I’m extremely happy to shoot it now as well as clean it since the Bore Tech products do as advertised. I would have never known how good this rifle was except for those 3 defective scopes on it. Although defective they would hold zero once they were adjusted until I drove home or rode a trail. Btw I could see light under the scope after taking it off then laying in the Talley’s when shining a light on the rings. It didn’t do that when mounted. The DNZ mounts are made from 6061 and are a true one piece mount and do not need lapping and don’t build up stress like 7075 when machining. Also, DNZ are made in the USA. Talley isn’t saying where they are making theirs but they do have a relationship with Browning and i relayed this info to them thru Browning. I’m certainly not bashing Talley since anyone can make a mistake.


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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:50 pm 
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Sounds like you’ve got things lined out with your rifle combo. That’s good. Scope rings are one of the few parts on a rifle you’d really expect to be perfect out of the box. Yet, they’re not. I’ve used Leupold, Tasco, Vortex, Seekins Precision, and a couple of other brands. None were perfect out of the box. What I’ve found is that even the one piece bases with rings will have imperfections on the inner part of the ring. So, I always lap new rings.

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Happy hunting,
Marty

http://www.feederlights.com/
The BEST HOG HUNTING LIGHTS.
http://www.inheatscents.net/
The BEST HOG HUNTING SCENTS.


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:37 pm 
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Update: cleaned powder on BAR with Bore Tech C4 powder cleaner, she’s shooting 1” 100 yard groups now! Xbolt is doing well with the Steiner after road testing scope to Colo and back. After getting X bolt mounting screw holes fixed shot the thing and scope tracked 1st 2 adj really well then went to 100 yds and after shooting 2 rounds made the elevation & windage adj and POI didn’t change... shoot today and the scope was exactly where it should have been yesterday after final adj. Called Steiner and asked about sticking or very strong leaf type springs and got confirmation it can take up to 3 shots to settle the X hairs. Now I know! Moved 2 clicks POI up today at range & I'm confident it moved Otw home. Thanks for all the advice and input. I was chasing my tail but now have 2 very accurately rifles again. God Bless and shoot straight!


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:46 pm 
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Btw: the Steiner Gs3 3-15x50 scope is a 20 MOA SCOPE. The description doesn’t give that when you read that. I asked Steiner why my scope had to be adj by 20 MOA elevation and was told it’s a long range scope and they build it so long range shooters don’t need a MOA RAIL. It’s really good optic and somewhat different than any other scope I’ve owned, but am real happy with what I’m seeing now!


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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:52 am 
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Hi Ronnie,

I've been 'out of pocket' lately and behind on posting. I'm glad to see you've made progress. :) I've always lapped steel rings until a few years ago when I put a set of aluminum on an old 30-30. I've also used aluminum rings on .22 LR rifles as well.

And old thingie we used to do when moving cross hairs, in the old days if you needed to move 3 clicks, you moved 4 forward and 1 back to account for the slack in the old scopes adjustments. Might work in your scopes case as well... Just a thought....

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Semper Fi,

Tom


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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:55 pm 
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Thanks Tom, I’ll try that next time. Shot a 100lb + sow at 220 yds leading 5 others this aftn. Hope the rest stay away till the deer breeding is over. Didn’t drop her on purpose but hit her in the lungs so the bears will eat well. They appeared to be eating Chicory so may not plant that next year. Called Steiner back today since my scope was 1” left but holding at 2” high. After I moved x hairs 4 clicks it moved POI 2” right. After 3 shots moved 2 clicks left and POI was in line with target. Scope is a 1/4 MOA. STEINER rep said when they checked the scope it tracked 1/4 MOA. He suggested that the range of adj maybe near the end after I told him it’s 20 MOA down at mechanical zero. He said that’s about the only thing that would cause this. I suspect it may move windage a little after settling so I’ll shoot the 100 yds again soon. No matter what I do it at the range I can hit the same hole multiple times when I shoot 3 settling shots. I tried a abusing the scope by hitting it. Lol. Still took 3 shots before it settled, then it’s repeating accuracy. I’m confident after the last 2 range sessions that it’s moving 1/2” MOA. I’ll put the Zeiss back on it later if it’s a problem. Try Steiner on the BAR again. I’m good with the accuracy of this gun. I guess I could try shimming & bedding the rings to offset the 20 moa down from Mechanical center but I’ve never done that. Any experience with bedding a scope in the rings after shimming?


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:34 pm 
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Is your barrel completely free floated. Action bedded? Sounds like those three shots to settle are warming the barrel a bit, causing a bit of movement. Once warm she settles right down. To combat that you can sight in one shot, let it cool completely, second shot, let it cool completely and so on so every shot is with a cold barrel. Or, free float the whole length of the barrel, and bed the action.

When I want my best accuracy I try to let my rifle cool between shots.

_________________
Happy hunting,
Marty

http://www.feederlights.com/
The BEST HOG HUNTING LIGHTS.
http://www.inheatscents.net/
The BEST HOG HUNTING SCENTS.


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:35 pm 
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Reading again. I may have misunderstood your last post. Not sure.

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Happy hunting,
Marty

http://www.feederlights.com/
The BEST HOG HUNTING LIGHTS.
http://www.inheatscents.net/
The BEST HOG HUNTING SCENTS.


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:02 pm 
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That’s good advice! Thank you! The BAR gets cooled in the truck with AC running unless there’s a little wind on a cold day. The x bolt is good for 3 shots in a really tight group, then let cool. However, on a hot day with little wind it goes into the truck too. I’m beginning to believe Steiner put the wrong turrets on the elevation. They do make a scope with 20 MOA for some of their scopes. If it’ll stay 2” high and windage settles, it’s good to go. Another range trip should tell me.


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