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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:56 pm 
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Location: Longview, TX
The Ultimate Hunting Rifle or A Fun to Shoot with Cheap Ammo Rifle:

Hunters are always looking for the ultimate hunting cartridge that can reliably kill critters out to 1,000 yards and beyond. Well, they sound like it a lot :) so I thought I'd start a discussion on the subject. In the past, there was only one cartridge that that fit the bill and that is the classic .50 cal BMG military round. Yep, if you get a solid hit a critter out at 1,000 yards +, it dies. It also can kill cars and trucks. There's a new cartridge on the market which can also do this. Developed by Barret, it's the .416 Barret based on the .50 BMG shortened about 0.70 inches and necked down to .416 inches. It fires a hand cut 398 grain solid brass bullet that carries more energy than the .50 BMG out past 1,000 and is supersonic to 1,700 yards ( 1.2 miles.) The .50 BMG costs about $5.00 USD per round and this Barret costs even more. I strongly suspect that this is a bit more than most hunters want to pay for either a rifle or per cartridge to shoot...

So, what are folks looking for ? I'd suggest that most hunters are looking for a rifle that can kill a deer, has minimal recoil that they can tolerate, they can shoot well and has cheap ammo. On the low end, I'm reminded of the Yuma Indians that I met while stationed at MCAS Yuma in '71~ '72 who were allowed by law to hunt with what they wanted to use. One of the guys had a good argument about the .22 LR being over powered for the 10 foot head/ neck shots they got hunting deer over scent at water tanks. That's really too small and most State require at least a 6 mm (.243) diameter bullet like the .243 Win as a minimum power to hunt deer with. Reports state that the most popularly sold rifle these days is a black modern sporting rifle or an AR style platform. A .243 Win AR is an AR-10 and costs more than the AR-15 platform. The ammo for a 243 Win isn't really cheap either. Looking at the AR-15 platform, there are good cartridges in the 300 Blackout, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC and others. However, they are all in the same power class of a 30-30 Win and their ammo isn't that cheap. I call these cartridges “sub rifle” class cartridges as they lack the power of a high powered hunting rifle, and, for the most part, are based on small for caliber cases that used to be the sole domain of the bench rest target shooters.

With all the rounds available in the AR-15 platform, your choice will be a compromise. The higher the velocity, the farther it possibly may shoot, but, the bullet weight goes down. A light for caliber expanding bullet will give you varmint cartridge performance. The bullet will virtually explode and the damage will be less than 2 or 3 inches deep. This is great for varmints, but it's bad for bigger game because you'll just wound them. Using a heavy expanding bullet in the same cartridge will slow the velocity down reducing the range you can easily hit your target. This heavier built bullet will expand and go deeper into the critter, but it requires velocity to go deep. It also requires a minimum of velocity to make it's 'expanding' feature work. When the velocity of the bullet drops below the required velocity for expansion, the bullet becomes a solid and works like driving an ice pick or nail into the critter, greatly increasing the chances you will just wound them. If you look at the internet videos on bullet penetration, you will see that velocity equals penetration. So we are looking at a compromise....

There are a lot of videos on the internet saying that they are testing bullets. Shooting a gel block at 10 feet to 10 yards with a hunting round is not a test. Critters tend to have a very tough elastic skin and that differs from the FBI handgun protocol. Those explosive gel blocks look cool but show nothing. In all my years hunting and the war I went to with an M-16 rifle, I never saw 'hydraulic shock' work. A temporary wound channel doesn't damage a critter unless it damages a vital organ. I haven't seen a gel block test that can duplicate that yet. A boar's shielded shoulder covered in mud and backed with shoulder bone is a hardened target. To shoot thru that and have the bullet expand and create a permanent wound channel damaging the heart and lungs inside of a 24 inch thick boar is not easily done.

I've made a simple drawing below to try to explain how an expanding bullet works. The bullet path starts at 1 and goes thru 2 to point 3. As the bullet starts expanding past point 1, it forms a cone of pressure. The bullet sheds it's energy in heat from the friction as well as the deformed bullet point pushing tissue outward from it's leading surface. If a bone is struck and splintered, these fragments contribute to the permanent wound cavity/ channel damage. Likewise, lead shards from the bullet itself act as shrapnel that increases the damage done. The permanent wound cavity shrinks back down as the required energy is lost to maintain it's maximum size. This is the section of the drawing from 2 to 3. The remaining bullet continues thru the critter with the expanded bullet creating damage. The distance from the cone on the left of 2 at it's maximum size to the point it starts reducing in size to the right of point 2 is a function of velocity and bullet size. If you study this, you will find that a smaller diameter bullet must travel faster to create the same damage as a larger diameter bullet. The maximum diameter of the permanent wound cavity will be up to 12 times the bullet diameter on it's expanded front. (The distance from A to B.)


Image


The damage done is done thru the transfer of energy. This is why the velocity alone doesn't define a cartridges abilities. Likewise, the foot pounds of kinetic energy is not the sole rule for a bullet. (There are over 7 math formulas by different sources that attempt to figure out a way to rate a bullet and it's usefulness. They're all different but are a way of comparing cartridges against a known performer.) My simple rule for 30 cal expanding bullets is 1,800 fps for expansion minimum and 1,200 ft. lbs. Energy for deer under 200 lbs and 1,800 ft. lbs. For Hogs over 200 lbs. You may disagree, but, it works for my style of hunting.

OK, so I side tracked on the selection of a round. If I'm a good boy and Santa believe that, I'm hoping for a Windham SRC AR-15 sized rifle in 7.62 x 39 mm. It's a fun to shoot AR and ammo is about $0.20/ round in bulk. Just my opinion, what's yours ?

_________________
-------------------

Semper Fi,

Tom


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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:56 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:00 am
Posts: 1160
Location: Santa Fe, TX
I've gone a couple different directions. Early in my hunting life I wanted one gun to do everything. So, I got a bolt gun in 30-06. I killed a lot of critters with that gun. The ammo was relatively cheap, and could be found everywhere. Deer hogs, coyotes or whatever I shot at was no match for my '06.

Fast forward 40yrs. Now I'm into AR's. Last year I used a PA10 in .308, Palmetto State Armory's version of an AR10. It worked great. Slayed some deer. Is just as, if not more accurate than my bolt gun. Ammo is relatively inexpensive, and again can be found anywhere. As much as I like my PA10, I wanted something more light weight, easier to carry, with some good punch to it. The 5.56 is NOT that cartridge. I wanted something with ammo that wouldn't break the bank, had decent power, and was enjoyable to shoot. Enter the 6.8 SPC. I converted one of my 5.56's with a barrel, bolt, and a magazine. It was an easy and inexpensive conversion.

The 6.8 SPC ammo, while not available everywhere, can be ordered online relatively inexpensively. In fact, the ammo I ordered from PSA ended up costing about 11.00 a box and arrived quickly to my door. While not the most powerful cartridge in the world, even less powerful that the 30-06 or .308, it has a reputation for killing hogs and deer. We shall see, as this will be my first deer season using that cartridge. So far, at the range I'm loving the cartridge. It's showing to be very accurate in my rifle, and has virtually the same recoil as a 5.56. I was surprised at the light recoil in fact.

Once I kill some critters with it I'll let ya'll know how I like it.

_________________
Happy hunting,
Marty

http://www.feederlights.com/
The BEST HOG HUNTING LIGHTS.
http://www.inheatscents.net/
The BEST HOG HUNTING SCENTS.


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:25 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:02 am
Posts: 158
Location: Longview, TX
I've tried to be very good boy and talked nice to Mama. I figure if I'm looking at a cheap AR15 in 7.62x39, why not an 'interesting' one for bit more. Seems that there's some barrel manufacturers that will guarantee at least 1 MOA from their barrels. Doing some research on buying/ building one for a bit more than the WW version. Have even sent emails to several manufacturer tech support folks about trigger strike strength (Timney) as well as reloads and steel casing ammo use, barrel gas tube lengths and actual drops in velocity between 20, 18 and 16 inch barrels. Looking at barrel breaks/ comps (even have one company that will send me a free 'blast redirector' if I will let them know approximate dBm drop at sides. Has to be private because the A*F has already labeled one 'blast redirector' as a suppressive device because the company advertised a 2 dBm drop at 90 degrees from the muzzle.) This might be a fun project if I get to do it. Targeting <$650.00. :roll:

_________________
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Semper Fi,

Tom


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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:12 am 
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Location: Santa Fe, TX
Marineboar, have you looked at Larue MBT 2s triggers? I've got two of them, and they're pretty dang good. They also come with two hammer springs, one lighter one and one heavier one. The heavy one for ammo with harder primers or if you need a gun with a little more trigger weight. Right now, until Christmas, they are 87.00 on Larue's website. I highly recommend the triggers.

_________________
Happy hunting,
Marty

http://www.feederlights.com/
The BEST HOG HUNTING LIGHTS.
http://www.inheatscents.net/
The BEST HOG HUNTING SCENTS.


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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:02 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:02 am
Posts: 158
Location: Longview, TX
Marty,

Thanks for that good information. Will go look at them now :)

_________________
-------------------

Semper Fi,

Tom


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:57 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:02 am
Posts: 158
Location: Longview, TX
Marley.

Even tho the wife's maternal grandmother's maiden name was LaRue, the LaRue triggers are a 2 stage mil spec trigger. I've been using bolt guns as a civilian and have had Timney's on all of them since '71. My current research has lead me to a different brand yet. They're HiperFire triggers. They offer a mil spec 4.5 and 5.5 lb pull. Their 'difference,' they say is using the rounded pivot points as cams and use dual coil springs to increase trigger impact energy. Their 1st model I'm looking at is their ENHANCED DUTY TRIGGER® HEAVY GUNNER @MSRP $99.00. If it has too much creep, there's a more Timney pull weight 2.5 lb and 3.5 lb pull weight target type pull HIPERTOUCH® REFLEX (FORMERLY 243G) @MSRP $225.00 (which is the same as Timney's 3.5 lb adjustable without the heavy striking power.) As a reference, I have my Timney triggers set at 3.5 lbs with just a hint of slack at the start so I can place my finger on the trigger and not set the round off. :) Here's a link to their trigger selection (and the CEO/ engineer that started the company has a good video on their development.)

https://www.hiperfire.com/triggers/

_________________
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Semper Fi,

Tom


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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:00 am
Posts: 1160
Location: Santa Fe, TX
Hyperfires are nice triggers for sure. Prior to me trying the Larue's I was using CMC single stage flat triggers. They were pretty good. Probably not as good as Timney, but close enough for me. Timney does make AR triggers if I remember right, but they're gonna cost you. For hunting, I've come to enjoy the two stage Larue's. Triggers are such a subjective thing. Most guys who are into guns like we are will have preferences on what kind of trigger they like, or will tolerate on a rifle.

_________________
Happy hunting,
Marty

http://www.feederlights.com/
The BEST HOG HUNTING LIGHTS.
http://www.inheatscents.net/
The BEST HOG HUNTING SCENTS.


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 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:06 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:07 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
My favorite new fun gun for hogs (in .308):

http://www.eurekamagazine.net/308a.jpg

http://www.eurekamagazine.net/308.jpg


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 Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:45 pm 
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Here's my fun set up:

http://www.eurekamagazine.net/308a.jpg


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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:14 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:00 am
Posts: 1160
Location: Santa Fe, TX
Nice bullpup Aircooled. How is the accuracy on that rifle? Recoil?

_________________
Happy hunting,
Marty

http://www.feederlights.com/
The BEST HOG HUNTING LIGHTS.
http://www.inheatscents.net/
The BEST HOG HUNTING SCENTS.


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